Detroit to London connection: Kevin Saunderson and Fabio & Grooverider in conversation

Fabio: First of all, let me tell you something, I just hope Kevin Saunderson is getting his flowers now. These Detroit guys to me are everything, if you're talking about house and techno.

The first track that I heard was Cybotron. I remember at the time a friend played it to me and I was like 'this sounds like electro', like it was coming out of New York, but I didn't really catch it. I didn't really get the whole thing again until about '88. I think I heard 'The Sound'.

Grooverider: I know exactly what caught me, the [1988] double compilation album 'Techno! The New Dance Sound of Detroit'. I must have heard Detroit tunes, but that's what made me know about Detroit, about proper techno. I don't know what they call that stuff now that I'm hearing, that's not techno to me!

Kevin Saunderson: [laughs] It's been changed many, many times, that's for sure.

Grooverider: I'm telling you, it's been Euro-fied, that's what the problem is.

Fabio: I was kind of listening to the Chicago stuff, but what caught me is that this had some edge to it. Do you know what it was — it sounded Black to me, it sounded like Black music, because it had the funk.

Grooverider: It wasn't even that for me, it was the fact it didn't have vocals! That was me, the 'Dub' mixes — so Detroit techno was right up my street.

Kevin Saunderson: I went to school with Juan Atkins and Derrick May. I think I was 12, Derrick might have been 13, Juan 14. Juan was on some different shit than us. We were like athletes, into sports and shit, and Juan was different. He had this vision, he was like, 'Man, I'm all about the future'. I was like, 'What's this motherfucker talking about, he all about the future?'. So I went over to his house eventually and you see all these different pieces of equipment that I had no clue existed. Juan was definitely the staple point.

Cybotron made the record before house music ever came out. He was ahead of the game. He was doing some different shit. It was kind of electro, but it was funky, it was groovy, but he was the first, so that got to me through the process of time, not right away, you know? Juan was on some different level shit. He inspired others.

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Grooverider: Was Juan into music first then?

Kevin Saunderson: Yeah, no doubt. He understood, he had this vision, he had equipment. We weren't thinking about no music at that time, it took a minute, but we arrived when the time was right, so. That was the beginning.

A lot of people say 'Kraftwerk, they created techno'? Kraftwerk made music with electronic tools... Juan was inspired by the fact one man could make his own music with this equipment. He took it to a different level, we added our inspirations, that's really what the techno poured out of. Kraftwerk, they didn't name they stuff techno. Eventually they came out with a record called 'Techno Pop', that was after Juan had released his first album and was onto Model 500 'No UFO's' and shit. I think that's important for people to be clear on. When you talk about Black history, people get lost in the information that's put out there.

Fabio: With the sounds, what inspired you guys to use the four-to-the-floor? Especially you? Me and Groove were real aficionados so we could hear the difference between all three of you. You had a very unique style. Your stuff really had, not just funk, it had some soul to it.

Grooverider: It had the crossover appeal as well.

Kevin Saunderson: I was originally born in Brooklyn, New York, so I'm not originally a Detroiter. My inspiration was different. Even before I moved to Detroit, onto Belleville, I always went back to visit my family, my father. My mother was from Detroit so I had to go with mom when they split up, So being back in New York and listening to a lot of disco, I heard vocal records that I ended up hearing in clubs like the Paradise Garage. I experienced that. Juan and Derrick, they didn't experience that.

As I got older and went back to New York, when I was 17, 18, I maybe went for a month or for the summer, I was going to the club. I'm hearing all this disco, all these records by Chaka Khan, Stephanie Mills, Sister Sledge, Nile Rodgers that you heard on the radio, but you heard them in the club and it sounded different. It sounded longer, you heard more music before the vocals. I always came from the inspiration of wanting to make dance music, that's for sure, but I always liked vocals, I like melodies, I like hooks. So I had two sides to me.

The Detroit guys, as I started making music, they was like, 'Who's this cat?!'. My first record was a vocal record, 'Triangle Of Love'. They was like, 'What kind of music you making man?'. I said, I can do instrumental, but I can do the vocals too! Derrick was more influenced by Juan; I wasn't as much. I was influenced by Juan because he sounded so unique and I just loved his shit, but I didn't try to sound like him. That's kind of how my sound developed. I guess you could say I was like a hybrid.

Fabio: How did Inner City come about?

Kevin Saunderson: Inner City came about because I decided I wanted to make another vocal record after 'Triangle Of Love'. By then I'd have made 'The Sound', Reese & Santonio, I had a few tracks out, getting my feet wet, you know.

We were close to Chicago, we’d drive to Chicago all the time. If Juan had a release we'd drive to Chicago and take 200 records we'd go to Gramaphone Records, we'd go to DJ International, we'd go see Farley ["Jackmaster" Funk], Chip E, all the Chicago guys and give out the reocrds. I met a guy named Terry 'Housemaster' Baldwin, he was releasing music, he released a track called 'Don't Lead Me'.

Fabio: With Paris Grey right?

Kevin Saunderson: Exactly. We became cool, he'd come to Detroit, I'm just playing him shit off the reels, random shit I'm working on. He's like, 'Woah, that shit is bad, man!'. This is 'Big Fun' before any of the lyrics was written to it. He said, 'You should use my singer [Paris Grey], she'd thrown down on this shit!'. I was like, let me give her a try, talked to her on the phone. He took the tape back, gave her some vision, and really that was the beginning of Inner City.

Grooverider: Wow. That track was on that album ['Techno! The New Dance Sound of Detroit'] as well innit.

Kevin Saunderson: Yeah, that was the last track to make the album because they needed another. And Derrick didn't like it, so he really didn't want it on the album. Neil Rushton, who became my manager and had Network Records, Kool Kat, he was like 'We need one more track'. Mick Clark was the A&R. That's how that ended up happening, because 'Big Fun' was not going to be on that album.

Grooverider: That's probably the biggest track on that album!

Kevin Saunderson: It helped elevate the awareness of techno, even though in my mind I'm just making a track. I wasn't trying to be techno. I just hear this song and vision. I was just making a track that I thought was a good dance track that could be played on radio and played in the club.

Fabio: Did you ever go to any of the acid house raves Kevin?

Kevin Saunderson: Yeah I went to a few of those. Did I meet y'all before you was playing Rage? I don't even know how I ended up at Rage. I don't know if I met you guys before?

Fabio: I think we met briefly at Rage.

Kevin Saunderson: I experienced coming to the UK from early '88, I stayed the whole summer of '88, then I kept coming back. While I was over there, I wanted to see what was going on. I wanted to go out and check out the vibes, or maybe I'd go to the record shop and they're playing this music, I'm like 'Damn, where'd this come from?'.

When I started hearing jungle I started saying, 'This is funky, this is groovy, it's fast but you can still dance to it'. I was intrigued to find out who was playing this music. The first time I remember you guys definitely was at Rage. I was just like, these brothers is killing it! This shit is bad! I wanted the shit to come back to America to be honest because, at the time, you know you got hip hop, you got soul, you got all these different pockets of music; in America everything was still part of segregation. There was Pop radio, Black radio. I was like 'Black people need to hear this', because I felt like it can work in the scene as well.

Black people in Detroit was dancing to what they call booty music, it was really fast. They was loving it, we had whole TV shows of Black people in Detroit just loving music that they don't hear on radio. I felt like the shit needed to come back to America too. That's kind of how I first got into hearing Fabio & Grooverider play. I was hooked from then, anytime I was in the UK and I knew they were playing, I was going. Then I got intrigued, of course, I started hearing Reese bass mixed in there. I was like, damn!

Grooverider: Drum 'n' bass owes you a lot of money Kevin!

Kevin Saunderson: If I could have put a price on that, I'd be real good! [laughs]

Fabio: You know what, that Reese bass thing kind of came out of the fact 'Just Want Another Chance' was one of our big tunes, me and Groove, we used to play that everywhere. In the end, everyone used to play it.

Grooverider: Then it got sampled to death. Sorry Kevin! But the whole world was sampling it. I apologise for the whole drum 'n' bass community.

Kevin Saunderson: [laughs] You can hit no wrong notes with that! That's the great thing about that sound.

Grooverider: The Reese bass, it's got your name all over it bruv.

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Kevin Saunderson: So you guys used to actually play 'Just Want Another Chance'? I don't know if I knew that.

Fabio: We used to play it at all the big acid house dances, it was a big tune. The four-to-the-floor, then that bass, man, that was me and Groove, man! If you could sum up what we loved in one tune, it's that tune.

Grooverider: Definitely. That is house music. Classic, man.

Kevin Saunderson: I remember when I created it, I had this vision, I made that record thinking about the Paradise Garage. You know, I was inspired, let me make something dark and deep, got deep into the synthesiser. Found, tweaked, messed around with the parameters, and had a blessing. My ear said, 'That's fucking it!'. That's how that shit happened.

Grooverider: It's mad because, what is that, 35 years ago? If you go to any VST or preset now, you'll see 'Reese bass'.

Kevin Saunderson: My son makes music and he didn't know the connection of Reese bass. I'm hearing him make music and I said, 'You trying to rip me off!'. He said, 'What you mean, dad?'. I said, 'Man, listen to this'. I start pulling out shit. ‘Go to YouTube, listen to this.’ And he was like, 'Wow!'. I said, Reese bass, that's my middle name, it's Maurice bass.

Grooverider: How's it feel to have a bass named after you?

Kevin Saunderson: It's quite special. I work sometimes with students, I do some coaching online. They showing me their DAW and it'll say Reese bass. And they don't know, they're young. I'll say, 'I got some homework for you, I want you to go back and find out where that Reese bass, that sound you see there, where did that come from? Do some research'. They're blown away.

Grooverider: We're in 2025 and people are still using it, that's testament to what it is. It's in every genre of music. Thank you Kevin. You're one of our inspirations for doing music, full stop. If it weren't for people like you, we wouldn't even be doing music now.

Kevin Saunderson: My first vision when I started making music, I made it for me. I knew I wanted to release my music so nobody can control what I want to do. Back then, it was just Black people dancing to it, but I was like, this ain't just for Black people, this is for the world. When I was around my campus area you had white fraternity parties, Black fraternity parties, still segregation, we were kind of separate. You would hear the white fraternity parties and you would hear the music, some of it was cool, it was punk, rock & roll, they drinking beer — they ain't dancing. I'm like, 'Y'all don't know what's happening, but y'all will!'. As we kept making this music, it kept getting bigger.

When I came over to the UK, it went from the acid scene, into a kind of rave culture mixed with drum 'n' bass as well, I was just blown away by how people was able to move so quick in that amount of time. It was like a virus, it just kind of took off in the UK. So it was very inspiring to me too, to create music and have a vision, and all of a sudden it's really coming to life and I'm having hits. Shit, I wasn't planning on Top Of The Pops, I didn't have that kind of vision. I wasn't trying to do all that. I was just doing what I loved doing, making music and wanting to play.

I thought it was a void in dance music back when I started. People ain't really playing disco, disco went back underground, and as we started techno and house and all the other movements started coming and following us, it was part of the vision to make the world dance.

Fabio: You lot started this whole movement. Out of all the guys, Kevin was the one that resonated with me more than anyone else. Everything that you was making, we were obsessed with. When you did the Tronikhouse shit as well, that was crazy.

Kevin Saunderson: You know that I was inspired off drum 'n' bass a little, and moreso breaks in the UK. 'Let me throw some breaks in here and try to do some different shit and make it a little tough'.

Grooverider: We're still running Tronikhouse now man.

Fabio: Still running it bruv! What's that bassline thing Groove?

Grooverider: 'Up Tempo'.

Fabio: 'Up Tempo'! Jesus.

Grooverider: That was some early jungle, bruv. You're a visionary Kevin.

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Fabio: It was the bass with Kevin! His shit always had this sub-bass that moved about, and sounded like when funk started to use bass plucks, instead of straight basslines. Your bass was just different.

Grooverider: You was LFO’ing before we even knew what LFO’ing was.

Fabio: That's right, that's the word I was looking for.

Kevin Saunderson: I was definitely getting into the parameters. It's probably a little different now because they've got so many damn synthesisers, so many different software plug-ins, presets, but back then I didn't have much equipment, so I had to maximise on what the hell I had, and I really learnt it. I really knew how to get the most out of it.

I had to create something unique to inspire me, I didn't want to sound boring or sound exactly the same. Because that's how my ear [works], I gotta find something unique to make me feel a certain way so I can get what's inside of me out. In a lot of my different tracks there's something that ended up being inspiring to other people.

Grooverider: I come out and done the Tronikhouse remix innit, I came out to Detroit.

Kevin Saunderson: Exactly!

Grooverider: Kevin bought me a ticket out there. I'd never been to America before, and Kevin asked me to drive his car… I'd never even driven on the right-hand side of the road before. You have to understand, Kevin to me, still to me to this day, is like a god. It was like Michael Jackson had asked you to drive his car, I was shitting myself!

Kevin Saunderson: [laughs]

Grooverider: I hadn't really had that much studio experience but I just wanted to be around Kevin Saunderson. I was just around my heroes. In that music in the UK there wasn't a lot of Black people at that time; house music in the UK was adopted by mainly white people. So me and Fabio were an anomaly. To be around Black guys who were into that type of music, that was like heaven for me. We didn't really experience it that much in the UK. When I got the opportunity to do that, I had to go for it with both hands.

Kevin Saunderson: I brought a few people over to do a mix or just to rub elbows with. I got this connection with people and I feel like they cool, so I also like to give people opportunities and just connect, to help the whole scene. I had no ego, it was more about, 'Let's make music, man, let's change the world'.

Grooverider: We did.

Fabio: The thing was as well, me and Groove, we felt like we came from the same kind of place. We were outsiders. We were Black guys that came up probably listening to funk and we all had this same kind of upbringing. That resonated with me, when I found out that all of them were Black, every single one of them at the time.

A lot of [UK] tunes that I thought were Black people were made by white people, even in the early jungle days. Jungle's always been a kind of melting pot. Drum 'n' bass now…

Grooverider: You struggle to find great Black producers.

Fabio: For real.

Grooverider: It didn't matter back then. That's what brought us all together, the music. It's just surprising when you're in a scene where there's so many people of other colours that are not you, then you see Black people in there as well and it's a shock.

Fabio: When we started out I remember someone saying to me, 'You guys are the first Black DJs to headline the main floor at Heaven'. We didn't really take much notice of that. It was the first time we saw white people dancing. We were just rolling with each other. Kevin can testify for this coming over, it was almost 50/50.

Kevin Saunderson: I found that to be true. I think that's also why we were so accepted in the UK. People didn't care about our colour, they was listening to the music, that's what I love about coming to the UK.

Grooverider: Music was the only way of achieving something like that. What else is there that joins people the way it does?

Kevin Saunderson: It's the most peaceful way of people uniting together. No doubt in my mind.

Fabio: It was not only colour, it was class barriers as well. No one cared about anything. We didn't care who was gay, who was Black, if you come from a different class, it broke down a lot of barriers.

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Grooverider: We was all there for the music. Well, we were there for the music, a lot of people were there for the drugs. I've never experienced that one myself.

Fabio: The mad thing was as well, the ecstasy thing came through, and then the music came through. It's like it was meant to happen.

Kevin Saunderson: They should have had that in America a long time ago then! [laughs] I jest. But I remember going to Heaven, and it was all kinds of people, classes, executives from the labels, because everybody was cool and wanted to be a part of this movement, and you see these executives taking ecstasy. Back then I'm 20, these guys are much older, 45, grey-haired, running companies, making great salaries. But they were all taking ecstasy too, and I see everybody dancing together, and I'm just blown away. It did not happen in America like this!

Grooverider: I like to think that we're the first generation of Black people that broke that barrier down. Don't get me wrong, I've been chased by white guys just because of my colour, but their schooling at the time wasn't what it is now. We've had to try and educate them. With us being the first generation Black people in the UK that were born here, we've changed things.

Fabio: The thing is, the way techno is now, I hope that people remember the forefathers of this music. The guys that really started this shit. When me and Groove first heard proper techno from these guys we were blown away. Most of our sets, if you listen to our sets at Rage, even before, me and Groove always gravitated towards the techno stuff. Even the Chicago stuff we was playing—

Grooverider: It had to sound like their shit!

Fabio: Exactly. We were more into the rhythms, and the way they used all these sounds and put all these chords on top, we were just blown away. In the end most of our set was techno. Then it started to get into the R&S phase, guys like Joey Beltram. I think Kevin brought Joey Beltram down to Rage?

Kevin Saunderson: I might have. We were cool. He did a remix back then for me too.

Fabio: I know you definitely introduced us to MK, because I remember you saying, 'This guy, he's a kid, he's really young, watch out for him, Marc Kinchen, he's making some really funky shit.' You turned us onto Marc and now he's blown up and he's doing his thing. Do you still hear from him?

Kevin Saunderson: Oh yeah. I say, 'Man, we gotta find some time to get in the studio again'. We talked about it, that was only a couple of months ago. It's been way overdue, so.

We never released anything together. Either he did a remix for me or I did a remix for him. There was times when I first moved Downtown to Detroit, when I had my studio there, sometimes I worked 24 hours then Marc would work and I'd try to sleep. The music was banging, I'd be hearing shit he was playing and jump up like, 'Hey man, keep that!', because he'd be changing his shit 20 different times.

Kevin Saunderson: The Detroit party scene was small when it started out. London, as far as the party scene, was much more advanced and open than Detroit. I was doing fraternity parties, that's how I first started DJing, going round to different campuses and playing. That was mainly just for Black people. Going to the UK, it was just so different. First off, I didn't realise white people could dance! I didn't have nothing against white people, but in America white people didn't dance. I was mesmerised just on that.

We did a tour, myself, Blake Baxter and Derrick May, early '88 in the UK. It was pockets. Some of the house music had already taken off. 'Jack Your Body', 'Move Your Body', some Farley stuff and maybe a few other tunes. We'd go to The Haçienda in Manchester, we didn't play it but we got a chance to experience it. We played in these clubs, they were really like pop clubs at the time. The only cool place at the time to us was The Haçienda and some cool parties going on in London. I think Heaven was around, Astoria maybe. By the time I came back in the summer, that shit just flipped a switch and everyone was just gone crazy, right!

You got Rage, you got big illegal parties, thousands of people, I was looking at this shit just blown away. It just happened, just like that. So, the scenes were quite different. You couldn't get away with that in the US at the time, there was no way you could have parties like that.

Grooverider: When we used to go over to the States we used to think they're a couple of years behind here. Not necessarily with the music, but the dancing for sure, and the level of parties.

Kevin Saunderson: People didn't even go to parties to dance unless you was in the gay scene, that small little pocket, and Chicago was cool, that was like 'Brother City', that scene was good because you had people like Ron Hardy, Frankie Knuckles. And they had it on the radio.

What was good about Detroit and Chicago is we had these mix shows that were quite powerful, especially Chicago. I know the UK had those pirate radio stations which was also cool. I'm blown away by pirate radio stations, people loved the music so much they found ways for people to hear it.

America wanted to give people a certain sound, whether it's pop radio, R&B radio, jazz, or whatever. What these programme directors thought people wanted to hear. They didn't take any chances. They wouldn't go out and say, 'I think that shit is hot, I'ma play it'. They’re looking at the next programmer and what he playing, and they really just following each other, and nobody's really pushing the boundaries of music. What I found in the UK, they did that, because you had all these surrounding elements that helped support it. Yeah, some records got on Radio 1 because it was just out of control! It was like 'Shit, we've got to play this, because everybody loves this record!'.

The American scene has definitely improved. I think that's because of social media. At one point, to be honest, it got a little discouraging in America. Even after I'd had success with Inner City and all that, I started hearing all this music coming over from the UK - Sasha, Digweed, Paul Oakenfold, I ain't got nothing against none of them - and it was like, 'All these are becoming big in our own country, nobody know what the hell this music really came from'. And then Black people hearing this music, said, 'Oh, that's techno, I don't like that music'.

We kind of got left behind because you had promoters promoting the UK, white producers that they're bringing over, and the magazines promoting them, and it became a form of capitalism, however you want to look at it. Especially in America, I would say [there was] some racism, make sure the control stays with white producers, white promoters, white agencies. That was a real problem I think. It's still a problem, don't get me wrong, but I think it's improved because the internet has exposed more artists, people are able to find out about artists, do research.

What's that sound that came over here? They called it EDM. It got real big, real cheesy. It kind of opened the door for people to say like, 'I'm tired of this shit, but we got these festivals going on', and some festivals started to play some house, put some techno DJs in there, these young kids are starting to hear it, and it's kind of elevating. After two or three years they're kind of over that phase and now they're trying to find the real shit. It has definitely improved compared to how it used to be. It's still got ways to go, as far as trying to get more Black artists out here that's making music to get opportunities to perform at the festivals and events.

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Fabio: We've got the same problem with drum 'n' bass. There's parties where you don't even get Black DJs on there.

Grooverider: It would be nice to see more people that look like me that are actually into the music. But because they're not doing drum 'n' bass doesn't mean they're not doing music. I see a lot of people swaying towards garage, and especially now, amapiano and Afrobeats. There's a lot of Black producers in those fields at the moment. But who knows what's gonna happen in a couple of years time.

Fabio: As you said with the EDM scene, I didn't see no Black DJs playing on the EDM thing.

Kevin Saunderson: It's an uphill battle. My goal is, especially in Detroit, we have a lot of artists, I still put out music on my label, I open the doors for anybody. But I am focused on helping, in my own community, Black artists who are looking for an opportunity, who have music, and mentoring, helping them, setting up workshops. I've been doing stuff like that, going out and talking to schools on career days. I go talk to younger kids and different age groups and explain to them about techno, tell them about the music. Some of these kids they've got some tools. Just to help shape that there's more kinds of music, look deeper, there's opportunities out there, don't be discouraged, keep going, persevere.

We have a festival in Detroit, Movement. A lot of the artists get an opportunity to play here along with a lot of European artists as well. There's nothing wrong with that, but don't leave out local talent, especially [talent] that's good and young, because that's how we keep evolving.

I want to see a future. Part of my legacy is I want to still use my label as a platform for others. Our sons help me run my label. They younger than me, it can keep on going. I don't want it just to stop and it's just all washed and everything is forgotten about.

Blackout Mixmag is an editorial series dedicated to Black artists, issues and stories, first launched in 2020. Our 2025 features are co-guest edited by Kevin Saunderson and Kwame Safo (AKA Funk Butcher). Read all of the previously published pieces here